Guest: Jillian C. York | Unpacking Meta's Content Changes: What It Means for LGBTQ+ Rights
Big changes at Meta's platforms, particularly concerning content moderation policies, have raised serious concerns for the LGBTQ community and beyond. Hosts Richie Roy and John McMullen welcome Jillian C. York, Director for International Freedom of Expression at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, to discuss these recent developments. They delve into how new policies may embolden hate speech against marginalized groups while simultaneously loosening restrictions on harmful content. The conversation highlights the broader implications of these shifts as Meta aligns itself more closely with political agendas, potentially compromising the safety and well-being of vulnerable communities. As the episode unfolds, they explore the urgent need for accountability and the importance of supporting organizations like the EFF in the fight for digital rights and freedoms.
Takeaways:
- Meta's recent policy changes raise concerns about increased hate speech against marginalized communities.
- Jillian York highlights the potential adverse effects of Meta's new content moderation policies.
- The EFF advocates for better transparency and accountability in content moderation across platforms.
- Changes in social media policies reflect broader political shifts and corporate influence under Trump.
- The LGBTQ community faces unique challenges with rising hate speech and content restrictions.
- The podcast discusses the importance of supporting organizations like EFF for digital rights.
Links referenced in this episode:
- richieandjohn.com
- motherboard.vice.com
- technologyreview.com
- wired.com
- eff.org
- reddit.com
- tiktok.com
- blue-sky.social
- instagram.com
- twitter.com
- facebook.com
- tumblr.com
- pornhub.com
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Meta
- Electronic Frontier Foundation
- EFF
- X
- TikTok
- Harvard
- MIT Technology Review
- Wired
- Progressive Networks
- Real Networks
- Open Net Initiative
- Threads
- Blue Sky
- Costco
- Amazon Music
- Spotify
Transcript
The Mutual Broadcasting System presents Richie and John, the podcast that connects you with the people, events, headlines and lifestyle interests of the global LGBTQ community.
Richie:Trump, Zuckerberg and must conspire with acts of greed and hearts of fire Their crimes and lies corruption vast Violate the trust we hold steadfast fast and Richie.
John:And John told us so here's Richie Roy and John McMullen.
Host:Welcome to another episode of Richie and John.
Host:This is our Saturday episode.
Host:I hope that you had a great week.
Host:And we have a special guest tonight to talk about the sort of head spinning changes that are happening at Meta, which is the company that owns things like Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp.
Host:They have made a bunch of huge structural changes to how they work in ways that that directly affect the LGBTQ community, amongst many others.
Host:And we have Gillian York here, the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Director for International Freedom of Expression.
Host:Gillian's based in Berlin, Germany, and her work critically examines state and corporate censorship and its significant impact on culture and human rights, especially among historically marginalized communities such as the LGBTQ community.
Host:At the eff, Gillian leads coalitions focused on maintaining freedom of expression, writing about corporate policy and censorship.
Host:She's authored the book Silicon the Future of Free Speech Under Surveillance Capitalism, which discusses the future of digital expression.
Host:Gillian's insights have been featured in publications like Motherboard, MIT Technology Review, and Wired.
Host:Gillian's extensive background includes impactful work at Harvard's Berkman Klein center for Internet and Society, where she worked on projects like the Open Net Initiative.
Host:And today, Gillian will help us delve into the concerning policy changes at Meta owned platforms and discuss their potential adverse effects on the LGBTQ community, especially leading into a second Trump administration.
Host:So please join us in warmly welcoming Gillian and thank you for joining us from Berlin tonight.
Gillian York:Thanks for having me.
Co-host:We appreciate you being here.
Co-host:First of all, for those in our.
Audience Member:Audience who are not familiar with eff, and I recall when it was first.
Co-host:Being launched because at the same time I was working for a little company that was originally called Progressive Networks and.
Audience Member:Then became Real Networks and was part of the, you know, kind of the.
Co-host:Advent of audio and video on the Internet with real audio and later real video.
Co-host:And I remember how important this organization was from a very, very early stage.
Audience Member:In the Internet world.
Audience Member:Tell us about what the EFF does, who you are, and what our audience.
Co-host:Should know about the organization first.
Gillian York:Sure.
Gillian York:So, yeah, EFF long predates me.
Gillian York: We go back to: Gillian York:We were founded then in San Francisco, and we're an organization that started mostly doing litigation, but grew to become an organization that does litigation advocacy policy, builds technology, and creates, you know, educational programs for people as well.
Gillian York:So we're kind of a full house of all sorts of things these days.
Host:And, you know, I think especially in this kind of climate, the work that EFF does is essential because we are in this completely mediated world.
Host:So much of our time is spent in these walled gardens, whether it's Twitter now X or the meta owned properties like Facebook and Instagram.
Host:And, you know, the list goes on.
Host:Obviously, TikTok, you know, is.
Host:Is in the news a lot these days in the US because of impending.
Host:An impending ban on that.
Host:But, you know, we've seen this week meta seeming to kind of go full tilt into sort of different territory than it's been in before.
Host:You know, just at a sort of corporate level.
Host:You know, they've pledged a million dollars to Trump's inauguration.
Host:They've added a Trump ally D.
Host:White to the board.
Host:And then we see these changes to the content moderation and fact checking that are sort of the heart of what we wanted to talk about today.
Host:You know, one of the things is, previously there were limitations on certain types of hate speech and conduct, and now there's weirdly a carve out for LGBTQ populations.
Host:Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Gillian York:Yeah, I mean, so this is.
Gillian York:It's really weird, right?
Gillian York:So we, I mean, we, we actually, we did a.
Gillian York:We, we did an initial first take on this and we, like many people, we saw the announcement, we missed that first bit.
Gillian York:We saw the thing about misinformation, we saw the thing about drawing back automated content moderation and over moderation.
Gillian York:And we were a little excited to see some of the changes that we'd been hoping for.
Gillian York:And then they buried it.
Gillian York:They really did.
Gillian York:They buried it.
Gillian York:They buried the lead.
Gillian York:And what it seems like they're really going for is this political push towards allowing more hateful speech against certain communities, particularly the LGBTQ community and immigrant communities.
Gillian York:And I think that it's.
Gillian York:It's bizarre because I do see the broader Picture here, and I want to get to that later.
Gillian York:But when we're looking at the way that they're selling this, what I see is that they're selling this through these new policies.
Gillian York:They're selling it to the.
Host:Right.
Host:Yeah.
Host:And I think that.
Host:I think it's telling that Mark Zuckerberg, you know, the head of Meta, chose a very particular place to sort of talk about this stuff, which was Joe Rogan's podcast.
Host:And, you know, that that's a.
Host:That.
Host:That is, you know, it's a very popular podcast, but it really does speak in a way to a certain population, you know, very.
Host:In a very powerful way.
Host:And I don't think that was by accident at all.
Gillian York:I listened to it to prepare for this one, actually, because I wanted to really hear.
Gillian York:In his own words.
Gillian York:I mean, because you.
Gillian York:You.
Gillian York:You see the reports, you hear the statements.
Gillian York:And I've worked with many people inside Facebook over the years.
Gillian York:I talked to a lot of people in WR book, some on the record, some off, but I've never actually gotten to talk to Mark Zuckerberg himself.
Gillian York:So seeing him talk to Joe Rogan, I guess, yesterday, you know, he gets some of it right, he gets a lot of it wrong.
Gillian York:And then he.
Gillian York:In that podcast, he really just kind of glosses over all of the broader picture things, the international issues, the geopolitical censorship that happens.
Gillian York:And.
Gillian York:Yeah, I mean, I think that he downplays the impact that this.
Gillian York:That downplays the impact of harm that these measures will have on certain communities.
Host:Yeah.
Host:And I think, you know, some of the changes involve allowing for, you know, hateful speech involving things like bathroom access, access to specific schools, military law enforcement and teaching roles, health and support groups.
Host:And the thing that I found kind of a weird sort of tail wagging the dog thing is this idea that you're allowed to allege mental illness or abnormality when discussing gender or sexual orientation.
Host:And the quote is given political and religious discourse about transgenderism, which, I mean, that term alone is like an homosexuality.
Host:And it's sort of like saying, well, because some people sort of weaponize hate in the public discourse, that means that our hands are tied, that we're not gonna do anything about this.
Host:And that seemed like a very strange way to frame things.
Gillian York:No, I absolutely agree.
Gillian York:I mean, I don't know if you saw the intercepts piece, but they actually got some leaks from inside on the background of, like.
Gillian York:Of some of the examples that could be used.
Gillian York:And I just pulled it up, and it's like things like trans people are immoral is an example that they use of something that's approved.
Host:Yeah.
Gillian York:Like who's writing this?
Gillian York:Who's.
Gillian York:Who's making these decisions?
Gillian York:Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's really aw.
Gillian York:That this is, you know, this is where they go to first and especially at a time where there actually is.
Gillian York:And, you know, I do come from a free speech perspective.
Gillian York:There actually is a lot of, you know, LGBTQ speech around the world that's being suppressed in places across Africa.
Gillian York:We've got governments there that are, like, pushing for regulations against LGBTQ speech.
Gillian York:We've got, you know, the.
Gillian York:The repression of political speech around the conflicts in Ukraine and Russia, the conflicts in Israel and Palestine.
Gillian York:And yet this is what he chooses to focus on.
Host:Yeah, it's a.
Host:I mean, that's a great point.
Host:Is.
Host:Is.
Host:It feels.
Host:Point.
Host:It feels extremely pointed because there is a great.
Host:There's a great EFF article which, you know, we'll link to on the website that kind of talks about if Matta was really serious about fixing what's wrong with their sort of content moderation platform, what they should do.
Host:And they're woefully out of step with any.
Host:Any of these best practices, whether it has to do with international populations.
Host:One of the things that jumped out to me, you know, again, because of the LGBTQ population is over censorship of sexual content.
Host:I saw an article on Teen Vogue, of all places, that mentioned that, which actually does great work.
Host:It's sort of surprising.
Host:They're kind of great.
Host:Apparently, for many months, Instagram for teenagers, if they searched hashtags like gay, lesbian, trans, transgender, there's a whole list.
Host:They would just be shown a blank screen that says sensitive content warning.
Host:And they couldn't actually access things that were hashtagged gay or lesbian or trans or any of that.
Host:And it was brought up to their attention and they said, oh, that was an error.
Host:We're going to fix that.
Host:But it's of a piece with sort of at one side, you have things like book, you know, LGBTQ book bans you have in places like Russia.
Host:Sort of the idea that expressing LGBTQ support is.
Host:Is sort of terroristic or objectionable in a legal way.
Host:And then you have.
Host:At the same time, you then have this bolstering on platforms like Facebook and Instagram of hate speech.
Host:It's, it's.
Host:It's really kind of.
Host:It's an amazing thing to see it happen kind of at the drop of a hat, you know, Addition, we saw Facebook this week, effective immediately, drop all DEI initiatives.
Host:And this includes things like hiring, training, picking suppliers.
Host:So, you know, it's wild, you know, to see this sort of happening in real time.
Host:And I guess, you know, I would like to hear from sort of the EFF perspective, you know, how do we navigate this?
Host:What is, you know, what should we do with this news?
Gillian York:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we're all sort of still trying to figure that out as well, to be perfectly honest.
Gillian York:You know, what do we do with the snooze?
Gillian York:I mean, I think we at first, you know, we tried to find the good things in this.
Gillian York:Right.
Gillian York:And there are some good things in this.
Gillian York:We don't like the fact that automation is being used to, to, to take down wide swaths of content.
Gillian York:That's something where that, that's something that's actually had a large impact on the queer community.
Gillian York:When you look at words like, you know, words that, let's say reclaimed slurs, that's something where automation doesn't, can't differentiate between the usage when it's being used as slur versus a reclamation, you know, appeals.
Gillian York:That's another thing.
Gillian York:Like they said, they're going to be making more of an effort there.
Gillian York:We're really happy about that.
Gillian York:So what do we make of it, broadly?
Gillian York:Yeah, I don't know.
Gillian York:It's really frustrating for me because I think that over the years this is a company that has tried to do the right thing, depending on who's on the staff at any given time, who's on the policy teams, and has often come up short.
Gillian York:But now they're just sort of rolling things back and kind of seeing what happens.
Gillian York:And I think that they're not recognizing that that might, you know, just, it's sort of like must.
Gillian York:Sorry, this is, this is really random, but like Musk's economic plan, it's, it's just sort of this like, you know, break glass measure that I don't see having.
Gillian York:Yeah, I don't see having a good outcome.
Audience Member:Yeah, let me, let me ask you.
Co-host:Kind of going back and with regards to some of that there, Facebook, for instance, has a huge presence of employees.
Audience Member:Not just in Silicon Valley, in Menlo park, but also in Seattle, Washington.
Audience Member:And both of these places are in fairly progressive environments, especially in the technology field.
Co-host:I come from Seattle and having worked for a couple of technology companies there.
Audience Member:And knowing how important their base of LGBTQ employees are across the companies, the.
Co-host:Various companies in that sector are up there, it would seem to me that.
Audience Member:Making these kinds of changes with the numbers of LGBTQ people who work for these organizations that There would be some real risk rift within the organizations.
Audience Member:And when a company like Facebook declares war on dei, it seems to me.
Co-host:That it goes a lot further than their customers.
Audience Member:It can really dramatically impact their base of operations if people were to, say.
Co-host:Want to flee working in that environment.
Audience Member:Because the company is not doing what.
Co-host:They should be doing.
Audience Member:So is there been any sign of threat that they could lose a lot.
Co-host:Of their better workforce as a result of these kinds of policies?
Co-host:And at the same time, are there people who are inside these organizations who.
Audience Member:Are saying, you know, hey, I'm sounding the alarm and we better get our.
Co-host:Shit together or we're going to be.
Audience Member:In deep, deep do.
Gillian York:Yeah.
Gillian York:So, I mean, I can't say I'm qualified to really weigh in on all of that, but at the same time, you know, I mean, I don't know if you heard this, but there was a trend of people calling in, calling in gay, just like people did back in Sweden when, yeah, people.
Gillian York:I forget the history of that, but I think you know what I'm talking about, and I hope readers will or listeners will as well.
Gillian York:Yeah.
Gillian York:So calling in, because if it's a mental illness, then I'm going to call in gay.
Gillian York:And so, yeah, I mean, I think that there is a large number of people who are protesting in that way.
Gillian York:I think that they are potentially going to lose employees.
Gillian York:But at the same time, I mean, this is a difficult market for a lot of people as well.
Gillian York:Where else are they going to go?
Gillian York:You know, the tech companies are all kind of heading in this direction.
Gillian York:A lot of them are, you know, have been cutting staff for a long time.
Gillian York:We've seen a lot of, you know, layoffs at Google elsewhere.
Gillian York:And so I think it's, it's, it's really challenging for the people who are inside these companies.
Gillian York:And I would understand those who chose, who choose to stay and maybe try to make things better.
Gillian York:But, you know, seem to me that.
Co-host:This also creates opportunity and competition in.
Audience Member:The sense that a lot of these.
Co-host:Very smart tech technologists and people who are not going to fly with this kind of an operation would be interested in.
Co-host:I mean, much as Blue sky has.
Audience Member:Evolved out of a group of people who were the originators of Twitter, that we're going to see some people start.
Co-host:To move that way.
Audience Member:And, you know, I'm also wondering, and have been thinking about ever since I.
Co-host:Really started thinking about this story this.
Audience Member:Week, the impact that happened in this particular case because of threats over the last couple of years by Donald Trump towards Mark Zuckerberg.
Co-host:That he was going to imprison him.
Gillian York:Yeah, I hadn't even really thought about that that much.
Gillian York:It's funny, you know, because I'm, I am American, obviously, but I live in Europe and so I'm back and forth in this world here and thinking about European politics.
Gillian York:But that's absolutely.
Gillian York:Yeah, that's so true.
Gillian York:And I wonder how much of that influences them as well.
Gillian York:You know, I also think, like, some of this is the.
Gillian York:It's Trump's.
Gillian York:It's definitely Trump.
Gillian York:But some of it I also think is like, there's this opportunity inside the company right now too.
Gillian York:And I don't think it's all Mark.
Gillian York:Joel Kaplan, who's the now has taken over from Nick Clegg, who's kind of a British social or what do you call him?
Gillian York:I guess he's.
Gillian York:I think he's Labor Party, but I'm not going to get that exactly right.
Gillian York:Yeah, the, the Joel Kaplan is a completely different animal and I think has brought his perspective to the policy table in a way that, you know, I mean, I like from what I've heard, he's the loudest voice in the room and has been for the past couple of years.
Gillian York:And so that's who Mark is listening to now.
Gillian York:And I don't, you know, I don't really see Mark Zuckerberg as necessarily having like, over the years just watching his statements and watching the ways that he's changed his positions over time.
Gillian York:He's a flip flopper.
Gillian York:I don't see him as having a strong basis for his beliefs.
Host:Yeah.
Host:And I think, I think that it's also, it's worth mentioning.
Host:I mean, you know, John, you mentioned the kind of saber rattling by Trump about imprisoning Mark Zuckerberg, but there's also the real additional thing is that there's an FTC lawsuit that is headed towards trial in April against Meta seeking to unwind Instagram and WhatsApp this sort of conglomeration.
Host:And I think there's also just kind of a craven business angle here, which is if I immiserate the LGBTQ population and just show my, you know, that I, I'm sort of going to bend the knee, that might, might literally affect who runs the FTC when this trial is coming to, you know, coming to happen.
Host:So I mean, there's also, by the.
Co-host:Way, his version of Twitter, which is Threads, which they also.
Host:Threads.
Host:Yeah, right.
Gillian York:Which they were also.
Gillian York:They've been promising to, to mesh with the Fediverse, but now, I mean, the.
Gillian York:This is a great opportunity for them to just say, yeah, no, nevermind.
Gillian York:Yeah, yeah.
Gillian York:I mean, I meant to come back to the Blue sky point, which I think, like, I think we're going to see a lot of people making moves now to different platforms.
Gillian York:I would be sad.
Gillian York:I don't really use Facebook at all, but I would be very sad to give up Instagram.
Gillian York:It's been my kind of beloved for many years.
Gillian York:Just community and dog pictures, you know, all the good stuff.
Gillian York:But yeah, I mean, if it goes the way of X, I'm out.
Gillian York:And I think I understand why a lot of people are like that.
Audience Member:And I think there was a pretty significant exodus in a very short period of time from Axe.
Gillian York:Yeah.
Audience Member:With.
Co-host:With the opportunity to go over to Blue Sky.
Gillian York:Yep, rightfully so.
Gillian York:Yeah, I, I get it and it makes sense.
Gillian York:I did it.
Gillian York:I mean, I haven't.
Gillian York:I, I've kind of deactivated and reactivated my X account over and over just to like.
Gillian York:Because I'm not sure how to save my data yet correctly.
Gillian York:But yeah, I mean, it's.
Gillian York:I'm not there anymore and, and I don't miss it and I don't miss the, the culture.
Gillian York:And I think that Blue sky has just been such a wonderful space to, to kind of find your own way.
Gillian York:And I hope that, that we'll start to see replacements crop up.
Gillian York:Not replacements, but better platforms crop up that replicate some of the same, you know, sort of design concepts and whatnot of Facebook and Instagram, but, you know, are not run by Mark Zuckerberg.
Host:Yeah, I mean, it's a great point because, you know, I think where.
Host:I think the, the, the X migration, you know, a lot of people were frustrated with Elon Musk and especially post election, I think where it's tricky with, with something like Instagram is Instagram is also a lot of people's livelihood when, you know, and the thing is, and this is sort of the tricky part about when you build your life, your livelihood on someone else's platform because at the end of the day, you know, it, it is how you reach your audience.
Host:I can't tell you how many.
Host:The, the algorithm is very good at picking things I would love to buy and making it very easy to do that.
Host:Some artisanal, you know, kitchen towel.
Gillian York:I'm not gonna tell you what I bought last night.
Host:And so getting off of the platform for a lot of people is going to be, I think, a challenge.
Host:So, yeah, I mean, I think we're, we're kind of, you know, as you said, we're all navigating this new world, you know, that just kind of landed in our lap this week.
Host:So, you know, it remains to be seen whether people are going to, you know, whether employees are going to revolt, whether people who are on the platforms are going to try to push back.
Host:I think what we will see is a strong uptick in hate speech.
Host:People who have been dying to equate immigrants to filth, people who have been wanting to call LGBTQ people mentally ill, have basically gotten the green light, I mean, to do it, and with the knowledge that there isn't going to be any content moderation of that.
Host:So I think we're in for kind of an interesting period here with that.
Audience Member:So what can an R you guys doing at EFF in this regard?
Gillian York:Ah, yeah.
Gillian York:So, I mean, we, you know, we really firmly believe that people should have a multitude of choices when it comes to platforms.
Gillian York:So we're definitely really on board with the Fediverse.
Gillian York:We're on board with the idea of decentralization.
Gillian York:We're doing a lot of work in that area.
Gillian York:It's not my personal specialty, so I feel like I can't, I can't weigh in as much as some of my colleagues would be able to.
Gillian York:But a big shout out to those at EFF who are doing that work.
Gillian York:We're also, though, we do work closely with companies to try to get them to make better policies.
Gillian York:So one of the things that we've done over the years is create the Santa Clara Principles on transparency and accountability and content moderation at Santa Clara principles.org and we worked with companies initially to endorse them.
Gillian York:Meta had actually been on board early on.
Gillian York:Reddit has been really, really on board, which has been great.
Gillian York:They're a fantastic company that has done a lot of work to be more transparent and accountable to their users.
Gillian York:And yeah, we push for better policies within companies at the same time, you know, hoping that people have their choice of platforms to go to.
Host:Yeah, that's.
Host:That's awesome.
Host:I mean, I, and I, I'm glad to hear.
Host:I mean, I haven't, I haven't thought too much about Reddit, but I mean, that is an existing platform that kind of is.
Host:Is a robust world.
Host:And if they are kind of a place that is trying to do the right thing, kind of maybe worth people either exploring for the first time or re.
Host:Engaging with.
Host:Because, you know, these platforms, you know, some of them, they, they keep existing, you know, like Tumblr.
Host:Tumblr had a great migration when it changed its terms, you know, many years ago.
Host:And A lot of people left, but it's been around.
Host:It's still here.
Host:And it seems like they're sort of trying to kind of come back a little bit.
Gillian York:I actually gotta go check it out.
Host:Yeah, I know it's still there.
Gillian York:Yeah, I guess I probably still do.
Host:Yeah.
Audience Member:I know that we, we have a.
Co-host:Number of people who tun into this.
Audience Member:Program who are involved in various aspects of adult entertainment.
Audience Member:And I know that that is an area that a lot of people are very concerned about, not only what these.
Co-host:Policies are at these individual companies and how they are applied, and are they.
Audience Member: concern in the era of Project: Co-host:I mean, the new chairman of the.
Audience Member:Federal Communications Commission under President Trump is.
Co-host:Going to be a person who wrote.
Audience Member: or for Project: Audience Member:So, you know, I don't, I, and.
Co-host:I never did buy into the idea.
Audience Member: hat I don't know what Project: Gillian York:Yeah, I mean, I, when it comes to adult entertainment and sex worker content on platforms, I mean, that's something where it's so insidious because they don't just go after adult entertainment content.
Gillian York:They're going after sometimes the people themselves and their, like, their ability to even share their personal stories on platforms.
Gillian York:So in my book, I interviewed a porn actress who had her personal Instagram shut down just because of who she was, not because of what she was sharing on her platform.
Gillian York:That's something, that's just ridiculous to me.
Gillian York:She should be able to have a life outside of her work where she shares, you know, pictures that are within the bounds of the platform's policies.
Gillian York:And yet that's not what's happening.
Gillian York:And I don't see Meta saying they're going to roll back those sorts of restrictions.
Host:Yeah.
Host:And, and that seems like that's kind of built into the DNA of a lot of Meta's sort of world, you know, But I think we'll have to, we'll, we'll have to kind of keep an eye out.
Host: John, you mentioned Project: Host:I did see an article and kind of to, to the point about censorship and especially international censorship about targeting of editors on Wikipedia, using sort of weaponizing, sort of, of that to try to strike at Wikipedia's independence, because that is kind of a place that, because of the way that it's structured, information is not, there's not necessarily a chokehold in the Same way that certain other platforms, you know, things like Jeff Bezos owning the post or you know, whatever, that Wikipedia is a little bit of a different animal.
Host:So I think we will have a lot to be paying attention to in the coming year.
Audience Member:Absolutely.
Audience Member:Jillian, I really want to thank you for coming on and talking with us about this.
Audience Member:I hope that this is just the.
Co-host:First of what will be several conversations.
Audience Member:That we'll be able to have with.
Co-host:You and some of your colleagues at.
Audience Member:EFF in the future as we have to navigate uncertain waters for the next.
Co-host:Four years at least.
Gillian York:Yeah, no, absolutely, that would be great.
Gillian York:And you know, there's a lot of my, A lot of my colleagues are working really hard on, on different pieces of this puzzle.
Gillian York:So, yeah, big, big love to them.
Host:Yeah.
Host:Yeah.
Host:Thank you so much and, and you know, we'll keep our eyes, our eyes peeled as things progress.
Host:But thank you so much.
Gillian York:Thank you so much.
Co-host:Here is what I originally read on.
Audience Member:The Electronic Frontier foundation website.
Audience Member:And I had a feeling that these guys are going to be a great.
Co-host:Resource for us to turn to and.
Audience Member:Talk about these kinds of issues because they really have been been for decades.
Co-host:Out on the front lines of dealing with these kinds of issues, whether it's.
Audience Member:Dealing with, you know, online protection acts or, or dealing with a company's policies or their practices around how they use AI and things like that.
Audience Member:And I want to really encourage people.
Co-host:To go and read this material for themselves because we don't have enough time.
Audience Member:In this episode to get into the.
Co-host:The nitty gritty of the detail.
Audience Member:But I think it's really worth everybody.
Co-host:Who is within the sound of our voice.
Co-host:Obviously you're online and you're concerned about these kinds of issues.
Co-host:I highly recommend that you go read this.
Co-host:And this is a non profit organization.
Co-host:So I would encourage you also to.
Audience Member:Think about throwing your support towards an.
Co-host:Organization like EFF that is doing the.
Audience Member:Kind of work that our guests this.
Co-host:Evening, that our guest today was talking about.
Audience Member:And I don't know about you, Richie, but she's talking your language more, more than anything because you too are a lawyer and you have a idea of what you're talking about when it comes to these things as legal issues.
Co-host:So how did you feel about the conversation?
Host:I thought it was really, I mean, I thought it was really a great discussion.
Host:You know, the EFF does great work and you know, I think there's, there's a legal component, but I think, you know, what we're seeing here and what we, you know, we've talked about on the show with things like Robbie Starbuck and, you know, DEI initiatives and support of LGBTQ initiatives is the.
Host:At the end of the day, what we're seeing right now is this kind of, this triumphant reign of oligarchs, you know, people who control really important mechanisms of communication and commerce, just kind of with the fetters off, you know, and you get the sense, you know, if you watch the Zuckerberg interview with Joe Rogan or listen to it, that he kind of never wanted to be in a position to do the right thing.
Host:You know, he, he's had all kinds of things about rebuilding the cultural elite to be different and just, just kind of parroting all these weird things that, you know, Elon Musk says and Trump says and, and, you know, just a reminder, you know, you think he's trying.
Audience Member:To get out of that boxing match with Elon?
Host:Yeah, I mean, I think they've buried that hatchet long ago.
Host:I mean, you know, we didn't even with, with Gillian.
Host:We didn't even really get into some of the stuff that, that in some ways, Zuckerberg is taking a page out of Musk's playbook.
Host:I mean, moving the content moderation team team from California to Texas, that is, I mean, that in itself is saying a lot because that is a classic Musk move.
Host:Musk loves to say we're moving our headquarters for SpaceX or for Twitter or whatever to Texas because we don't want to be in that lib, you know, California anymore.
Host:So that in itself is kind of like, it sort of says a lot.
Host:And, you know, we're, we're seeing, you know, in the interview and in the policy change, Zuckerberg endorsing, you know, quote, community notes, community moderation, which is what we've seen on Twitter, which, you know, is, is an imperfect at best solution to misinformation and hate speech.
Host:So, you know, again, it's just kind of this particular form of virulent laissez faire, but thin skinned at the same time kind of, of pro hate speech, anti decency kind of move.
Host:We're just seeing this time and time again.
Host:I mean, and in a different vein, you know, we've talked about things like Jeff Bezos spiking endorsements of Kamala Harris and more recently spiking an editorial cartoon that showed Jeff Bezos, among other business leaders, essentially groveling at the feet of Donald Trump.
Host:And he said, no, you can't publish that.
Host:And the, the cartoonist who has been at the Post for a long time, resigned.
Host:There have been More resignations as a result of that from the Post's employees.
Host:But, yeah, we're just seeing kind of.
Host:We're just seeing a very quick and drastic capitulation by really important business leaders and people who run a lot of important modes of communication to Trumpism and to maga.
Host:And it's happening at a breathtaking and scary pace.
Host:Case.
Co-host:Well, specifically, as they point out at.
Audience Member:Eff, in one of their pieces here, they talk about Meta's hateful conduct policy.
Co-host:Now containing the following Language.
Co-host:People sometimes use sex or gender exclusive language when discussing access to spaces often limited by sex or gender, such as access to bathrooms, specific schools, specific military, law enforcement or teaching roles, and health or support groups.
Co-host:Other times they call for exclusion or use insulting language or use insulting language.
Audience Member:In the context of discussing political or.
Co-host:Religious topics, such as when discussing transgender rights, immigration, or homosexuality.
Co-host:Finally, sometimes people curse at a gender in the context of a romantic breakup.
Co-host:Our policies are designed to allow room for these types of speech.
Host:Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, the other thing that I think really, you know, shows where their head is at is that they've removed prohibitions on comparing people to inanimate objects, feces and filth based on protected characteristics.
Host:So you could say, you know, gay people are shit, you know, or you could say, you know, Jews are filth or whatever.
Host:And that previously was not allowed on that platform and now is allowed on that platform.
Host:Platform.
Host:I mean, it's just there, these are concrete examples of how a change from the top will have very immediate effects on the kind of language you see on these platforms.
Audience Member:Well, I think when we got into.
Co-host:Talking with Julian York a moment ago about the issues around adult entertainment and the unequally applied rules of the road, depending on what kind of adult entertainment that might be or for whom the audience is intended.
Audience Member:It just really seems to me that there's going to be a opportunity for somebody to get into funding a competitive business to these guys who are really truly about not filtering entertainment, but filtering hate.
Audience Member:And when that, when business that comes along and does that realizes how significant that they are going to be in the landscape of cyberspace, it seems to me like that is a real winning opportunity.
Audience Member:And there are enough people who are very wealthy progressives that somebody could definitely afford to fund that kind of an operation.
Audience Member:And I think that they'd be rewarded well for it.
Co-host:And I don't mean just for the.
Audience Member:Sake of adult entertainment, but I mean.
Co-host:Period, where people can go and feel.
Audience Member:Like I get to exist as the.
Co-host:Person who I am in a safe space.
Audience Member:And I think that that's basically what we all want.
Host:Yeah, I mean, I think it's a little tricky.
Host:I think it's tricky right now because what we're seeing specifically, you know, with regard to adult entertainment is there are a number of states in the United States and just.
Host:This is not even international.
Host:Let's just talk about the US because it's complicated, but just in the US There are an increasing number of states that have, you know, with this kind of, I think this canard that it's to protect youth, but basically saying that websites that provide adult entertainment have to, like pornhub, have to collect identification.
Host:So they have to basically get, you know, scans or photographs of people, people's driver's licenses or passports in order to access those platforms.
Host:And in reality, that is such an.
Host:It's such a.
Host:It's a huge burden for the company to do.
Host:It leaves them really exposed to huge cybersecurity risks because that personally identifiable information, if they were to get hacked, that could be a huge, huge risk and a huge cost to deal with.
Host:You also have.
Host:Have people who, you know, there's one thing to go down to your local gas station, pick up a nudie magazine, show your ID to the guy at the.
Host:At the front and take it home with you.
Host:It's a different thing to upload your ID and your email address and your IP address and have all that in some mysterious database.
Host:You know, people aren't going to want to do that.
Host:And so places like pornhub and other sites are just closing up shop in states in this country.
Host:And I think, you know, basically evaporated across.
Audience Member:I was just reading an article earlier today where that is basically evaporated across.
Co-host:The entire American South.
Host:Yeah.
Host:And what we might very well see is something similar coming at the federal level, you know, and.
Host:And you could see very quickly part.
Audience Member: Of the Project: Host:Right.
Host:And so when you mentioned, you know, the idea of a platform coming up that really champions things like freedom of access, you know, to content and getting rid of hate speech, there are headwinds, you know, especially in that regard.
Audience Member:Excuse me while I button up my shirt.
Audience Member:I need to get ready for living.
Co-host: In the: Host:Yeah.
Host:So, you know, it's all stuff that's worth paying attention to rest here on display.
Host:Right.
Host:And so, yeah, it's.
Host:I mean, you know, I think the EFF and the ACLU and other organizations like them are going to be critically important because we are.
Host:This is not the beginning.
Host:I Mean, this is not the end of this kind of onslaught of, you know, the rise of hate speech and the closing down of other kinds of previously protected speech.
Co-host:You had to know that this is.
Audience Member:What we were headed for anyway eight years ago, nine years ago when we.
Co-host:Started, you know, seeing him descend on his golden escalator.
Audience Member:You know, I mean, because he's a foul mouthed to begin with, but the reality is, is that he's always been somebody who talks crap about everybody and.
Co-host:Anybody who does not just roll over.
Audience Member:For him and that's how he behaves.
Audience Member:And so does Elon Musk and so does Mark Zuckerberg.
Audience Member:And, you know, all these, you know, I'm disappointed to see, I am, I am surprised and disappointed to see that even Tim Cook with Apple, a gay man, a progressive person generally, has started to kowtow to Donald and, and it makes me just, you know, sick to my stomach because what it means is that, you know, people are more concerned about their personal treasury than they are about the good of humankind.
Host:Yeah, I mean, it is dispiriting.
Host:You know, we're not seeing a ton of bravery right now.
Host:You know, we, you know, just, we did report on, and this is a, this is a minor win, but it's still, you know, it's remarkable in this current moment.
Host:You know, again, Costco standing up, up to this onslaught of anti DEI fervor.
Host:But we're not seeing a ton of corporate bravery right now in any regard.
Host:We're seeing just absolute folding, you know, like a cheap suit to, you know, Trump is not even in office yet and we're already seeing people lining up to just kind of throw in the towel and just say, you know, yeah, we're gonna just kind of roll with, with, you know, all of these, you know, everything you want to do.
Audience Member:I got news for you, that's exactly what he wants.
Host:Absolutely.
Audience Member:Be so tired of politics and all the dissension between the sides and all that that you'll just turn your head.
Co-host:Not pay attention and let him get away with whatever the fuck he wants.
Host:I mean, I would say to get away with whatever the fuck they want.
Audience Member:Yeah.
Host:Because at the end of the day, we have to remember that Donald Trump has always shown himself to be one of the most intellectually incur people.
Host:I mean, he's not capable of holding a thought other than a grudge longer than maybe two seconds.
Host:Whoever has his ear most recently is the person that, you know, he's listening to and he's gonna, gonna do the bidding of whether it's Putin or Musk or whomever.
Host:But it's, it's.
Host:He, you know, he is.
Co-host:That's what we should do.
Co-host:We should rename him.
Co-host:We should just start calling him Grudgy McGrudgerson.
Host:But he's basically just kind of this, you know, Manchurian Candidate for the extreme right, you know, who is just surrounded him with adulation and just bent to nonsense.
Host:I mean, you know, I think, you know, a thing that has happened recently, you know, that we haven't talked about on the show because it doesn't necessarily have a direct LGBTQ angle, but the, the quickness with which Republican pundits and even representatives in Congress have bent to ideas about things like acquiring Greenland or making Canada a state.
Host:These are just nonsense things that are, that are Trump testing exactly how far people will follow him, because these are ludicrous, stupid things that don't make any sense.
Host:I mean, this is, this is like straight out of the fascist playbook to just say, how far can I bend reality?
Host:And you will still be with me.
Host:And so far, it's there.
Host:I mean, the Panama Canal, I mean, give me a break.
Host:The, the Gulf of America, they're, they're just going for it.
Host:And it's just, it is so sad to see, and it's very alarming to see.
Co-host:It is.
Audience Member:Well, welcome to the new America, the one that is housing Dumbistan.
Audience Member:And I, I honestly, I'm not sure that we're going to have a show for much longer because I'm not sure.
Co-host:We'Re going to exist much longer.
Audience Member:I don't mean you and I or this program or this network work.
Audience Member:I mean, you know, country that is built on freedoms that were constitutionally protected.
Audience Member:I, I don't think we have a constitution anymore.
Host:It's, I mean, the erosion of a lot of constitutional protections has been happening for a long time, and it is really swiftly increased under the Roberts Court.
Host:But it is not just the Roberts Court.
Host:I mean, we've seen, especially with things like, you know, the First Amendment with regards to religious expression, you know, free exercise and establishment.
Host:You know, we've, we've.
Audience Member: ng from high school, which is: Co-host:Conservatives, conservatives in this country would be behind his election.
Audience Member:I would, I would have laughed you.
Co-host:Off the face of the earth.
Host:It's, I mean, it's, it's really just about raw power.
Host:I mean, it's, again, Trump is, is an, is a nearly empty vessel and is just someone who, they can, they can harness his power over people to get their ideological goals accomplished ever.
Host:I mean, with the kind of modern, sort of, the modern post, you know, kind of the Contract with America era and, and, and forward conservative movement.
Host:It's not about ideological purity.
Host:You know, it's about hypocrisy, and it's about power.
Host:Because the thing is, Joe Biden could eat a banana split and not put a cherry on top, and they would call for him to immediately resign.
Host:Trump can be a convicted felon and someone who has openly talked about all kinds of just horrific things that just go against every, of just basic Christianity.
Audience Member:If you were a criminal defense attorney.
Co-host:Knowing everything that's going on right now.
Audience Member:And had to deal with a client whose conviction was not in question at all, but, but was a done deal, and you were getting ready for the.
Co-host:Sentencing hearing, why wouldn't you just go.
Audience Member:Into the court and say, well, you know, this is this much of what.
Co-host:That guy did, and he's President of.
Audience Member:The United States and he didn't have to go to jail and he didn't have to pay a fine and he.
Co-host:Didn'T have to do.
Audience Member:I mean, it seems to me that we've completely eradicated whatever teeth we may have had in terms of trying to keep a civil society civil, and that.
Co-host:We basically blown the doors off and.
Audience Member:Said, okay, do whatever the hell you want.
Audience Member:Welcome, you know, welcome to Gotham City.
Host:But you know, that, again, that is not.
Host:I mean, the, the, the re.
Host:Ascendance of Trump to president is just kind of the icing on that cake, because if you go back and look at other things we've talked, I think, on this show about this before, but the rampant sort of growth of the stand your ground castle doctrine, which basically says if you're an old white man, you can just shoot people of color and can get off free, like, not even, like, just, like, walk, like, not even get charged.
Host:But if you're a person of color and you have a legally owned gun that you're allowed to have in public under the laws in that same state, you can be harassed by the police and they'll find a way to make your life miserable.
Host:You know, so this, this hypocrisy and this kind of like, you know, the idea that there is One rule of law has been just gutted for a long time now.
Host:And it's just.
Host:Now it's just.
Host:It's just crystallized by having a pres.
Host:An incoming president who's a convicted felon, you know, who can't even, you know, who can't vote, but, you know, just voted anyway in Florida because Ron DeSantis said he could.
Host:You know, just.
Host:That's where we're at.
Host:Yeah.
Host:I mean, you know, they talk about being the.
Host:The party of law and order, but it's lawlessness and it's.
Host:It's totally disordered, so.
Audience Member:Joke.
Host:Yeah, I agree with you.
Audience Member:These people who are part of MEGA are.
Audience Member:It's like they blew the fucking gates.
Co-host:And the walls down around the Arkham Asylum.
Audience Member:You know, it's.
Audience Member:It is.
Audience Member:It is the worst thing you could.
Co-host:Imagine in the fictional world of Batman.
Host:So, you know, I think.
Host:I think I do want to end this Saturday episode on a little bit of a positive note, which is to say we have PE people like Jillian at the EFF doing amazing work.
Host:We have people at the ACLU and the Trevor Project and, you know, you name it, people who are lambda legal.
Host:You know, there are people doing the important work, and we're going to keep focusing on them going forward and try to get more of them on the show to talk as we kind of live in real time through this kind of crazy chaos.
Host:And, you know, I think a final.
Host:I think a final thing to say is I think I can speak for both of us that our thoughts are with everyone in Los Angeles.
Host:It has been a very apocalyptic time there with the fires.
Host:And to anyone listening to the show who is in that area, we hope that you are safe and secure and we hope that the fires are under control as soon as they can be.
Audience Member:Yeah, absolutely.
Co-host:Well, on that note, I'm going to bid you a fond adieu and we will get together again on.
Audience Member:On Newsday Tuesday and talk with you about the latest news going on in our community.
Co-host:Hopefully, we'll again find some little snippets of good news to share with you.
Audience Member:As well as having to deal with all the malarkey that's going to be coming your way for the next four years at least.
Audience Member:So do stay with us and we'd.
Co-host:Love to hear from you.
Audience Member:Richie, that email address.
Host:So the best way to get to us is richieandjohn.com our website.
Host:It is a lovely website and it has a contact form, it has resources, has all the good stuff right there.
Host:So, richieandjohn.com, you can reach us by email if you want to do that, that is inforichiandjohn.com or you can pick up the phone.
Host: You know, those still work in: Host:Get in touch with us, let us know what you thought of this episode, what you think of the show generally, what you'd like us to talk about, and we would love to hear from you.
Audience Member:Yep.
Co-host:For sure.
Audience Member:And, and we will get back together with you again on Tuesday.
Audience Member:So everybody have a wonderful weekend and.
Co-host:We'Ll catch you real soon.
John:Thank you for joining us on Richie and John.
John:This podcast is a production of the Mutual Broadcasting System and is available@richyandjohn.com as well as most major podcast portals, including, including Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music and Spotify.
